Erica 0:41

And after a long break, we are back. We have been busy with 2021. Uh, 2020 was a lot slower. I can say that 2021 is picking up again. And it is kind of getting in the way of doing the show, but I'm glad to be back with you. Um, we, even though we haven't had maybe the show on, we are working with change participants, um, as you know, every week we get, we get new people who sign up. And, uh, we've seen some great results and we did want to mention if you got your stimulus check, uh, this past week, great time to invest that in yourself. If you can. Um, the change program is the same price. It was in the seventies, the late seventies. So it really has never gone up in price. So we have somebody who just got back on board and pay the exact same price from in the seventies. Um, But yeah, if that is something you want to look into overcoming anxiety, this is the program Dr. BARR, who is a licensed clinical therapist who specializes in anxiety, uh, uses in his office. It's the one he did when he had a bad experience. It's the one I did when I had a bad experience to overcome anxiety. Um, and actually today, in this episode, you get to meet Dr. BARR, you get to hear about what was that bad experience with an earthquake that he had. Um, I'm going to kind of interview him. And this is an episode we played last year, but. It's an important one. It's about a therapist who was specializing in anxiety and that he really knew what anxiety was. He thought he understood it. He thought he knew how to help people in this office until one day he was in his office and being in Southern California, there was a huge earthquake. Um, I'm going to let you, you hear him tell this story, but from there he had to find ways to cure himself from things like depersonalization, panic attacks, fear of, um, an unexpected earthquake at any time. And you're going to hear a pretty relatable story from a therapist himself. So let's get to that right now. I'm glad to be back with you guys. welcome to the life free of anxiety podcast, where each week we'll bring you another discussion to help you on your way to overcoming your fears. I'm Erica and together with dr. Charles Barr, a licensed clinical psychologist, specializing in anxiety. We'll be your guides on this journey to find a list of helpful free resources we offer head to lifefreeofanxiety.com Because you are not broken, you are not alone. And you are on your way to living a life free of anxiety. All right. Well, welcome to our very first podcast. My name's Erica and I am joined by Dr. Charles Barr. Uh, Dr. BARR is the best I went to him myself. Um, it's kind of what makes this podcast unique is that I am. Actually a client of Dr. Barres, who is a licensed clinical therapist. Dr. VAR, please. Um, let us tell, well, first day, hi, let's say hi before we get into all your fancy education.

Dr. Charles Barr 3:46

Well, hello, Eric. I, and it's, it's nice being with you again. And, um, we certainly haven't, uh, Had some wonderful experiences together and difficult times also, but it's nice to be on this kind of a format and be able to share some of what we've learned together.

Erica 4:06

Yes, definitely. And you've got quite the, um, you're, you're a real pro so, um, I mean, at least what you

Dr. Charles Barr 4:16

told I'm at I'm at least, uh, I'm at least licensed. And I think that I have a lot of experience in this field. Um, just to give you my background a little bit, uh, I am a licensed clinical psychologist and I've been licensed since 1979, which kind of makes me an old guy. And, um, so I've had a lot of experience doing this because I specialized in this in anxiety disorders in 1988. And there's a particular reason why I specialized in 1988 and that's because in 1987 we had the Whittier earthquake and I was in my office at the time of the earthquake. And I thought I was going out my window and I completely had a panic

Erica 5:07

attack. When you say you felt like you were going out your window, um, for those non-California people, because we are both Los Angeles based. And can you explain what that's like? I mean, I've never even felt like I was going out the window. I was lucky enough to sleep through our big earthquake, uh, back some time ago. What does that feel like?

Dr. Charles Barr 5:25

I, I was, I was sitting in my, um, office chair. Talking on the phone with a client in San Francisco and I was facing the window when the earthquake hit. And so my chair is on the rollers and, um, if you've ever, uh, been riding a wagon or been sleigh riding and you wanted to get the sled going, you know, you kind of give it this forward jerk and, uh, to get yourself going. And I found myself with that motion moving toward the window and, um, At the same time my bookshelves were banging against the wall, like crazy because the shockwaves were coming that direction and I completely lost it, which took me by total surprise because I always had considered myself a very stable, very good under pressure person. And all of a sudden I dissolved in a panic attack and, um, We can talk about the symptoms, uh, of, uh, of a panic attack in a few minutes, but I had most of them. Um, and one of the ones that I particularly had was I had the depersonalization, um, the realization that, that was very disturbing to me and the net effect of that. Um, now I feel like I'm fortunate because a lot of people develop those kinds of feelings. Without having an external stimuli to cause that, um, but I, I had an external stimuli. It, I knew what had caused it, but somehow it still didn't seem like it was strong enough that I should have had that response

Erica 7:12

real quickly. What is depersonalization? Just so we don't confuse anybody who might be wondering.

Dr. Charles Barr 7:19

Uh, depersonalization is a feeling of unreality. Uh, it's like, uh, somehow you're losing a grip on yourself or you're not quite there. And, um, the other, the other thing that is sometimes is called, um, uh, derealization or depersonalization is just being detached or being beside yourself. Um, and I was so detached that, uh, The day of the earthquake. Apparently one of my office mates had walked by and, um, Three days later, she said something about that. And I said, you were here during the earthquake. And she said, well, yes. I said, don't you remember seeing me?

Erica 8:02

You're a full-blown professional therapist at this point. And this isn't you in some other job or career at this point, you're actually a therapist at this point, correct?

Dr. Charles Barr 8:11

I already, I've already been in my practice for, uh, almost 10 years. And, um, Um, I had no memory of having seen her. I was somewhere else. And that's what the personalization and the realization is about. And could

Erica 8:27

I just add something just in case we're making anyone a little bit nervous or, or uncomfortable with what we're explaining? I had these symptoms too. Um, I have friends who have very different symptoms. It, I used to think. My symptoms were worse or more important or more severe, whatever, then somebody else's. And I just want to add, um, anxiety can look like really anything. So if you do or do not have symptoms like that, we're describing, um, You know, it, it doesn't really mean anything. Anxiety can look any way for any person. Well,

Dr. Charles Barr 9:05

that's a wonderful point that you make. Um, I call anxiety the great mimicker and it can mimic, um, a heart attack. It can mimic a stroke, it can mimic all kinds of strange physiological things that medically don't even make sense. And yet they're very real to the person experiencing them. And. And it manifests very differently for each person. It's, it's a very complex disorder because it does manifest in so many ways and each person experiences it uniquely for themselves. And yet when you put the whole field together, they're strangely similar, you know, it's like we all have similar responses and similar feelings. And yet we all experienced it so differently and in different intensities. Um, so for some people, it, it shrinks their world so small that they end up becoming housebound. It's called the housebound disorder. Sometimes, you know, this, this can be abilitative, um, it can shrink your world so much that, uh, you feel like you don't even recognize your former life because you did have a life before panic,

Erica 10:23

right? Yes. That's definitely where I was. When I came to you. I had been to several different therapists. I had spent hours talking about my problems, thinking that if I could just. Hit, if I could just reveal the right information to account, sir, if I could explore what happened in childhood deeply enough, if I could really get honest, if I could stand on my head, if I, if I could, you know, find out what somebody else did that really worked and oppose shit, you know, anything, I was, I was at such a point where, um, and I I've, I've heard before that anxious people are very determined people, um, because it's, it's awful. It's awful being anxious.

Dr. Charles Barr 11:07

Well, and, and that's, that's why I ended up specializing in anxiety disorders in 1988, after I had had this experience, um, it just threw my self-concept into complete disarray. And, um, I felt like it threw me in the air and I didn't trust anything about myself anymore. And, um, I also had this sense that. Uh, I had worked with several people who had had panic disorder before and thought I had done a fairly good job, but, um, it was like, well, if this is what people are talking to me about when they come in and they say they have panic attacks and they're, they're feeling panic. If they feel anything, like what I felt. That's absolutely horrible.

Erica 11:54

And you didn't know, so all this time you were looking at it from kind of a textbook perspective, have you heard their symptoms? You thought that sounded unpleasant, but you had no idea what it was actually like until you experienced this firsthand.

Dr. Charles Barr 12:07

That's right. That's right. And I think if you've never, if a person has never experienced panic, they really have no true concept of just how strong it is. Just how, um, What a complete experience it is because it, it, uh, it, it sort of changes everything. It's it's almost like it changes your physiology. I don't know for sure that it does, but we're looking into that. Um, the field is, is progressing in biological ways to look at those kinds of influences, but it's almost like it just changes everything. It changes your nervous system. It changes how you see the world. It changes how you see yourself, um, changes, how you relate, um, changes what you thought you knew about yourself. Um, so it, it was just a devastating kind of thing. I feel so badly for all those folks up in the Ridge crest area here in California, who just went through, um, the terrible earthquake around July 4th this year. Yes. We felt that down here, but we certainly didn't get the kind of shaking that they did. Um, the, the interesting thing is, is I've shared my story with a lot of my, uh, well with probably every one of my anxiety clients. And, um, so a lot of them are always concerned about me whenever there's an earthquake. So be checking on me, Dr. Are you okay? You know, it's like, yes, I am. Um, and I've learned that I am okay. And I have not had that. Uh, a repeat of that, although I tell people and it may well be true. I say, if you're with me and we had the big earthquake that they keep saying, we're going to have, you may get to witness me panic, but it will not do what I, what it did to me before, because I understand panic. I understand what the feeling is now. I understand where it came from and it won't be that I may still panic because. Uh, in a larger earthquake, that's the common response because it's a common enemy or a common

Erica 14:25

danger. Is that what your fear kind of became a fear of earthquakes after that? Along with feelings of deeper personalization, is that kind of what you do? Yes. It

Dr. Charles Barr 14:35

was very, very much the fear of earthquakes. Um, it was very interesting because just about the same time that, uh, the Whittier quake happened. Universal city opened up, um, an earthquake exhibit where they had mimicked an earthquake in San Francisco. And, um, I thought that was the dumbest single dumbest move I could ever think of, but be entertaining in any kind of way. Um, of course it was a smash hit, but, um, it took me probably. Well, uh, I, I got past the anxiety part, but I still couldn't go to that exhibit probably for another couple of years. I finally did go to it and, and saw that it was, it was actually instructive. Uh, to see that you have, this is what might happen in an

Erica 15:28

earthquake. It might've even felt a little insensitive at the time when it came out, because I F I mean, maybe not, but for me, everything was so personal. It wasn't really in my anxiety.

Dr. Charles Barr 15:38

Yeah. Yes. So, so earthquakes became my big fear, which meant. You know, well, okay. So, um, what if I'm in a restaurant and I get an earthquake and what if I'm in the movie theater and there's an earthquake in a stadium and there's an earthquake, all the Woody that's right. Um, and so what if I'm alone in my office and there's another quake, you know, what if, what if, um, because that's, what was, I was alone in my office on the first one. Uh, what if I'm. And the parking structure and there's an earthquake, the what ifs just run

Erica 16:15

rampant. Right? Which any person with anxiety knows pretty well, unfortunately. Well,

Dr. Charles Barr 16:21

and, and if they don't know, um, let's be very clear about that. That is one of the things that we really stress in treating this disorder is. Stopping the what ifs, trying to catch those and change them. And one of the effective ways of doing that is to start saying so what to them. So what that is just a scary thought. Now, at first that's hard to grasp because you're thinking. Yeah. But what if, and did you hear what I said? Yeah, but what if, and so every time you say, so what. There's a yeah, but just waiting for you to undo that. And so, uh, that those thought patterns are very powerful and they're automatic. They sneak in before, you know, what's happened and it's very scary. Um, it's fear enhancing it. You're scaring yourself and. I'm very good at scaring myself. Just like everyone else who's ever had panic scares themselves. Afterwards.

Erica 17:34

What I recall from the first time we met is these talks about you're scaring yourself and me being kind of like, okay, I'm scaring myself. Huh. Um, you know, I knew that in a sense. Um, but I think it was. I, I mean, I think I just didn't know what was going on anymore. Honestly. I mean, to, to feel that it was me was something that, uh, had to, that I, that concept had to kind of grow on me in order to make sense with the first time I heard it. I don't know that I really believed you or, um, I was so skeptical at this point that anybody really understood what was happening. Um, but I, I did, I do remember one of the first things you said to me was. I really want you to know that I, I understand, um, that you're truly suffering and I'm really sorry about that. And I remember that hitting me so effectively, um, because nobody else had ever said anything like that from a clinical perspective. I mean, everybody else was very compassionate. Um, but I don't remember anybody really. Truly understanding what I was going through and calling it suffering, because that's really where I was at at that point. And it sounds exactly where you were at after the earthquake.

Dr. Charles Barr 18:54

Oh, it absolutely was where I was at and I, and I do consider it true, Stephanie. Um, the feelings were so powerful and, um, it's just remarkable. Uh, the strength of it, you know, the, the power of it is, is just incredible.

Erica 19:12

And for a spoiler alert, um, is there help, is there help for this? I mean, you seem to have gotten better.

Dr. Charles Barr 19:20

That is the good news. The good news is there is help available and you don't just have to suffer and you don't just have to live with it. And white knuckle through everything. Know that when we were talking about people becoming a Gore phobic, that is one of the responses, is they just, their world shrinks down like that. The other thing that happens is, um, some people go ahead and function, but they're white knuckling through everything. And so it robs you of all the enjoyment. Right. It's like, you may still be able to go to work, but you're going to work with white knuckles and then you can't get an elevator. So you will have to walk up five flights of stairs and, um, you can't even go to the bathroom by yourself anymore. You know, that

Erica 20:10

kind of thing. Try nine flight home. It was it 13 flights. I, I can try to remember what was the most I ever took to avoid the elevator. Cause that was such a big one for me.

Dr. Charles Barr 20:21

Oh, that's right.

Erica 20:22

That was one of yours, probably in great shape at that point, taking all those stairs. But

Dr. Charles Barr 20:28

there's an advantage

Erica 20:32

that it's worth it. Nothing was more humiliating than that for me, I think, um, that, that was kind of the, the breaking point where I was like, I can't, I can't not, you know, I mean, I was, I was wondering if there was going to be an elevator. The second I was on the phone making a doctor's appointment or the second I was planning to go to, um, a friend's house. So I was always so many steps ahead, you know, of, of getting ready to be afraid and talk about scaring yourself. I can kind of piece the, you know, everything together now. Oh, I was already plotting fear.

Dr. Charles Barr 21:10

Yes. That's an interesting way to think of it and to say it is, um, getting ready to be afraid. And I think that's exactly what happens. And

Erica 21:19

by the time I came to you, I was taking I, the first thing I did was look for your stairs. Uh, it was not, it was less embarrassing to admit to a therapist. I ha you know, I, I think I'd probably asked you on the phone, you have stairs and, um, which is less embarrassing because you're used to that kind of stuff. Um, but it was. Not nearly as convenient as taking your elevator, which eventually I was doing. Um, you are the, which is funny. Cause I think that was only within 10 weeks that I was taking the elevator to see you. And, um, maybe nine. And it's, it was funny about that is you are the therapist. I have spent probably the least amount of time with, because, because I got better, so much faster. Um, it's, it's nice for people to be listening to somebody who truly knows what they're talking about. I don't, I don't know if you remember how I was, uh, when I first came in, but I was very, I was barely, I felt that I was barely getting by. I probably looked like I was doing just fine to those who didn't know me well. Um, but. Um, I also had an elevator at the time in my apartment. I never took, so I had a parking garage situation where I would go all the way around, um, take up groceries and all that. And boy, was it a relief when I started being able to take the elevator from the garage straight? Yeah. Uh, very good. But, um, and that was something that I never, never thought I could do, you know, walking in, I. I had a very cynical attitude by the time I had gotten to you, um, about,

Dr. Charles Barr 22:57

well, I think that, you know, um, it's an unfortunate thing. Um, for a lot of folks who have a Gore phobia or who have had panic disorder for some of them for many years, they have, uh, lots of people have sought help. They've been, it's not because they haven't been looking, they they've sought help. They've spent a lot of money. They've seen. Uh, maybe eight or 10 doctors of one kind or another searching for the answer. The other, the other thing is it's so hard to believe all of those symptoms that you feel all of these terrible feelings that you have can be caused just by stress. And I say just, and people get mad at me when I first introduced that word, you know, because it's it's so, uh, It sounds like a put down it's diminutive. It is lessons there, the importance somehow. And, and it's like, how, how can all of this just be because just by stress. And it's like, well, because you've learned how to do this over time. And your body has, has done a shift and has become hypervigilant. And now. It's running its own course. It's like the anxiety takes on a life of its own and it's running your life instead of you running it. Right. And, um, and so we've got to teach you how to be back in control, uh, through a series of cognitive behavioral things and through breathing and relaxation training. And, um, there's a certain set of tools. That you need that if you will practice those tools, you can walk your way out of this disorder. It's very hard. It's hard for people who believe that, you know, Dr. Barbara you're full of it because I've spent thousands of dollars, um, on various therapies and, and tests and doctors and. Um, what do you mean I can, I can walk my way out of this and yet that's the good news is I think that you really can. And I believe that, um, I watched myself do it. I've watched multiple other people do it. I watched you do it. Um, and that's, that's the thrill for me is to, uh, work with folks and watch them just work their way out of this and get back in for life. Right.

Erica 25:31

And I recall you mentioning breathing exercises, which I had already been introduced to with my past therapist. And the thing that really concerned me about those was that I seemed to feel better maybe in the moment or, um, maybe for a little while after, but I didn't understand. The con the conditioning that needed to happen, the practice that needed to happen. And we can get more into that later. Um, but for those who might be sitting here saying, well, how do I do this? My question was always, how many times a day, what am I really supposed to be doing to get better? Could we, like I said, I was very determined. Um, and, and we can, that's something that we hope you guys will, um, stay with us to hear more of. Uh, because we're definitely gonna kind of, uh, direct you to the right place and, and hopefully be a source of friendship here for you guys. And, um, just a place where you can kind of get a lot of your questions answered, because if there's anything I remember about being totally anxious, it was having a million questions.

Dr. Charles Barr 26:46

Well, and I think that it's normal to have a million questions, and I think it's normal to be totally skeptical about this. Um, so if our listeners are sitting there going, yeah, I've heard this kind of thing before. It's like, well, maybe you have, maybe you haven't, but, uh, it's normal for you to feel skeptical. And, uh, I'm not put off by that. And that doesn't disturb me that you're skeptical. Um, But if, if folks are willing to, to see we, we think that this is a learned complex disorder, and this has been learned over years and years. Not, not meaning to learn this. None of us learned, uh, meant to learn this. Um, but we did, we, we managed to learn it and for some people they have a specific time and date and they can tell you almost like my earthquake. They can tell you. When their very first panic attack was, yes, that's very common and other people, uh, they've kind of just always been anxious their whole life and, and didn't even have a word for it. Right. Um, it's just, they, they've just kind of always been anxious in their life and all of a sudden something changed and it overwhelmed their system.

Erica 28:09

Okay. Well, you just heard Dr. Barr's story. Pretty interesting stuff. We are going to be back with you next week for, um, something good. Don't worry. It's always something good here. Again, you can find more information on the change program that Dr. BARR helped Dr. BARR get better. And me that's changed with two A's dot com and also feel free to shoot me an email. That's erica@lifefreeofanxiety.com. And I always do love to hear from you. Okay. I will talk to you soon. Thanks so much for tuning in today. I hope that something in today's conversation provided you with a feeling of hope, determination, or purpose. I know what you're going through, and that's why I want to give you some of the tools that helped me in my anxiety journey to get a free copy of free from fears head to freefromfearsbook.com to find out more about the CHAANGE anxiety treatment program. Find us at CHAANGE.com Thanks again for listening. And remember you are not broken You are not alone and you are on your way to living a life free of anxiety. See you next week.